100th Episode: Key Lessons from Six Years of Circularity.fm
What are the learnings after 100+ conversations with circular economy experts?
For our 100th Episode Special, Celinne de Paula from the Circularity.fm team takes over as host and interviews Patrick Hypscher on what six years of conversations with founders, investors, and professionals has taught him.
What you’ll hear in this episode:
- The skills needed to make circular projects succeed
- The overlooked levers within the circular economy
- How the circular landscape has evolved since 2020
This special also covers what led Patrick to start the podcast, and what’s next for Circularity.fm.
Dear listeners, thanks for listening to the show!
People
Patrick Hypscher, Circularity.fm Founder, Circular Business Strategist, PaaS Expert
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hypscher/
Celinne de Paula, Circularity.fm Team
https://www.linkedin.com/in/celinnedepaula/
Chapters
00:00 Intro
03:05 The Start of Circularity.fm
06:09 Patterns and Insights from 100 Conversations
09:02 Barriers and Levers for Circularity
11:55 The Evolution of Circular Economy
14:58 The Evolution of Circular Economy
14:58 Personal Reflections and Future Aspirations
About
Circularity.fm is the podcast about understanding, building and managing circular business models.
Each episode features candid conversations with managers, founders and investors, unpacking the numbers, trade-offs, and playbooks behind scalable circular models.
Produced in partnership with top-tier circularity events worldwide, we bring you fresh strategies, case studies, and deal-room insights from the global stage. If you’re building the next generation of resilient, low-resource businesses, tune in to Circularity.fm – where circularity meets profitability.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Intro
Celinne de Paula: Hello everybody, welcome to another episode. As you can clearly hear from my voice, I am not Patrick. My name is Celinne and together with our colleague, Yusuf. Shout out Yusuf. We’re part of the Circularity.fm team. Today, it’s a very special occasion. We are here at the Cradle to Cradle hub in Berlin.
to record the episode number 100. So we decided to take a quick break this week of a current series Incineration in the circular economy. And for the very first time, Patrick will actually be a guest in his own show. I’ll be asking Patrick some questions referring to the learnings that he had across all these 100 conversations. And I hope you enjoy the insights that you hear.
Patrick Hypscher: My name is Patrick Hypscher and this is Circularity.fm, the podcast about understanding, building and managing circular business models.
Celinne de Paula: For the past eight years, he has been working at the intersection of circularity and profitability. He has built two startups and has scale products as a service business in Germany and the Netherlands. And right now he advises startups, SMEs and corporates. He’s a Systemer thinker, a circular economy strategist, and of course, the host of Circularity.fm. Welcome Patrick.
Patrick Hypscher: Thanks, Celinne. Finally, I’m a guest in my own show. A bit strange, but I loved the idea when you suggested that a few weeks back.
Celinne de Paula: How does that feel for you?
Alright, well first of all, congratulations, 100 episodes, that’s a huge milestone. Let’s first start with the moment you decided to actually start your Circularity.fm So what has led you to record the first episode?
Patrick Hypscher: Yeah, it wasn’t a single moment. Back then I was in charge of Blue Movement, the circular product as a service of BSH. And I kind of fell in love with the circular economy and wanted to learn more about it from a business perspective. And I thought about what’s a good structure to put me a bit under pressure to constantly look into the subject. And podcast was one candidate.
Next to that, also to be honest, many listeners are familiar with that. I wasn’t so happy with our management back at the time. I was also looking for something outside the corporate world to do without any alignment necessities. And yeah, a friend of mine, Joern Hendrik Ast, he’s running the New York New Work Podcast. He inspired me and gave me a bit of final push. So yeah, thanks Joern Hendrik for that one.
[00:03:05] The Start of Circularity.fm
Celinne de Paula: It’s always helpful to have a good friend like that. Absolutely. Well, one of the episodes that’s a lot of data. So you’ve interviewed and had conversations with founders, with investors, with several managers, business professionals. So my question to you is, is there any patterns that you can think of, of things that these episodes have in common and also where do they differ?
Patrick Hypscher: Yeah. So I think the normal answer would be no, there aren’t any patterns. Why is that? To me, I learned that circular economy is as wide as the real economy. And it’s more about how we do business. So how do we source materials? How do we design products? How do we bring them into the market? How do we service them? And so on and so forth. And therefore,
It touches kind of every industry, more or less every function in the company. And 100 conversations is not a lot to capture that variety of how we do business. However, I think there is one aspect that unites everyone I’ve interviewed and I guess also many, people who listening and who are part of the, consider themselves as part of the circular economy. And this is the
personal motivation and dedication ⁓ to look for circular solutions. I feel this personal motivation is also something that makes it pretty easy and comfortable to work in that community and contribute to that community and that unites all of us. yeah.
Celinne de Paula: Yes. Okay. You said 100 episodes, not that much, but I do know that you also attend many events on circularity. So you have a lot of info to have this bird’s eye perspective, perhaps. My question to you now is, do you think there’s some overlooked barriers and also underrated levers for circularity?
Patrick Hypscher: What I learned over the course of the last years is that it is not so much the specific subject matter. So the specific choice of materials and certain circular strategies and so on. You do have to know that and this knowledge is available out there. What is in many cases key to succeed is
how to communicate with stakeholders. because shifting a system, be it a company or an industry or the whole economy, shifting that system from linear to circular requires change. And that means people need to change. And in order to support people in changing, you need communication. ⁓ And therefore the crucial skill of sustainability and circularity professionals
and innovators is to communicate with other people, show them the potential, ⁓ inspire them, see where there are examples out there and understand also their pain points and bring that together and point out what the commercial or normative benefit is. So this skill in terms of communication, I think this is ⁓ key and it’s not so visible when we talk about circular economy.
[00:06:09] Patterns and Insights from 100 Conversations
Celinne de Paula: Alright, was that perhaps one of the unexpected lessons that you’ve learned? Is there anything else that comes to mind?
Patrick Hypscher: Yeah, sure. There many unexpected lessons. One of the last episodes was about insurance and that perspective and the lever insurance companies have, that also surprised me a lot, which goes hand in hand a bit with the role of banks and in general financial institutions, because if they, be it insurers or banks, start to move
money to more circular solutions and investments, it does have quite an impact on the real world and how business is done. And the second one is about something everyone can do in his or her company. And this is the power of sourcing. I think sourcing is one of the most underrated levers when it comes to
changing to a more circular economy because you can start today to buy more circular products, be it reused products, refurbished products, switch to service models, ⁓ and also think about how you deal with unused or underutilized assets. ⁓ So this is something that’s pretty easy to implement right away. And it does have an effect in the market because it sends a signal to
build more circular solutions. And in many cases, it’s also good for the company because you either get better service or you save money. And I think the last one, it’s a bit probably more philosophical or personal. I think what is underrated, but it’s probably the toughest cookie is like, how do we perceive the good life? Do we aspire a lifestyle that is driven by linear?
resource extraction. ⁓ It starts with traveling the goods we buy, we own, stuff we show off, or is it cool to be circular? And how we want to live and what we think is the good life has a huge influence on how we consume and how the economy looks like. And ⁓ changing that has a big
impact on circular or linear practices.
[00:09:02] Barriers and Levers for Circularity
Celinne de Paula: Yeah, that’s right. Like this is something that we should all maybe give a thought to every now and then. So you started the podcast in 2020. Back then, the EU Circular Economy action plan had just come out. How do you think the landscape of Circular Economy has evolved since then?
Patrick Hypscher: I feel it’s not much time since then and want to zoom out a bit because circularity and sustainability, it’s easy to complain and ⁓ that there’s still so much change needed. But technically, if we go back like thousands and millions years ago, nature always has been circular. And also the way we humans traded goods ⁓ was for
centuries rather circular, only when we started with the industrialization and then later globalization, resource extraction accelerated. But up until let’s say 200 years ago, ⁓ humans lived a more or less circular life. Yeah. Of course, there have been many benefits in the way we’re living, but I think it is possible to have a circular economy and follow circular principles. Of course, no one, me included. ⁓
really wants to go back 200 years from now, but, everything is going to slow, especially if you’re industry, yeah. So in the last, last years, there are so many initiatives and many of us see the need, what needs to change and everything is going to slow ⁓ and so on and so forth.
I don’t want to go too much into minor details. think the overall change in the last six years is a bit who’s the sponsor of circularity. So six years ago was more or less exclusively sustainability, ⁓ planetary boundaries that we have to make sure that the condition of how we live ⁓ is still present and working. And over the course of the last, yeah.
one, two, three, four years with the Russian war on Ukraine with COVID, with the war between USA and Iran. And the sponsor of circularity is now much more supply chain resilience, geopolitical independence. So the narrative, the reason why changes a lot right now, which is some way good. Let’s not forget sustainability completely. ⁓
benefit from that. But I think if we do that in a conscious way, we will be, let’s say, more circular and also more sustainable than a couple of years ago.
Celinne de Paula: How do you the difference between sustainability and circularity?
[00:11:55] The Evolution of Circular Economy
Patrick Hypscher: For me, circularity is like a sub-segment of sustainability. Circularity, I have a narrow understanding of circularity. It’s more or less exclusively about resource extraction, avoiding waste, keeping resources in the loop. Whereas sustainability includes social factors, it also includes…
wider impacts on the environment that are not necessarily tied to resources. Let’s say biodiversity, 50 shades of sustainability or probably 500 shades of sustainability. yeah, sustainability is much wider and that also leads to situations where you could have a circular practice that’s not necessarily sustainable. So that’s a trade-off we…
We have some circular practices might even emit more emissions and there are many goals and metrics you have to balance with each other. And this is even harder on a sustainable level.
Celinne de Paula: Yeah.
Now coming to a more personal question. Was there any moment, but in this 100 conversations that you were like, yes, this is why I started Circularity.fm.
Patrick Hypscher: Yeah, there was actually one moment very early on, a couple of years ago, I had Puck Meckelkoop in the show. She’s the founder of Holder Loop, a child and baby clothes renting service from the Netherlands. And I interviewed her about that. And a couple of months later, she came back to me and said, hey, Patrick, we just closed a…
deal with one of the biggest retail chains in the Netherlands. ⁓ the trigger for that was that one of the ⁓ members of their senior management listened to our conversation. And it’s of course cool to hear this is the kind of collaboration I want to facilitate.
Celinne de Paula: That’s beautiful. Nice. I love to hear that. ⁓ Also one thing that you, so you always end the podcast saying the most abundant renewable resource is your imagination. You’ve been saying this for six years now. My question is, why do you think this is so important and has the meaning of this sentence changed for you?
Patrick Hypscher: I think it’s important because it just emphasizes the fact that everything we humans build is contingent. So there’s no natural physical law that the economy has to be linear, as I said before. humans build that economy, so we’re able to change it. And it’s just a matter of imagination and of course, changing habits, which is much harder.
And yeah, it’s a motivation for everyone to don’t accept ⁓ linear boundaries.
[00:14:58] Personal Reflections and Future Aspirations
Celinne de Paula: It’s just a matter of construction. Also, imagination is very important for all the innovation, the different things that you need to do and how do you do it. Now, Patrick, ⁓ there’s something that you often ask your guests on the show, which is thinking about the future. So what is forward for Circularity.fm?
Patrick Hypscher: Well, I do believe in evolution ⁓ and I think it’s about continuing aspects that are already there. So I want to do more partnerships. just, I mean, right now we are in the Cradle to Cradle Hub here in Berlin, most likely the most circular building in Berlin. And right now we are also running a series with New Ventures together on waste incineration.
I think some amazing series with Holy Poly and Indeed Innovation and we want to continue that because there’s so many experts out there who have so much knowledge about different aspects of circularity and ⁓ circularity of ⁓ is about spreading that knowledge and yeah, so more partnerships and collaborations. one. Second one.
is also the international aspect. So the series I did last year in Kenya, ⁓ yeah, was eye-opening again. ⁓ Different continent, different culture, different economy, therefore different challenges, different solutions, and also puts stuff into perspective. ⁓ And wanna do more series with international variety. And yeah, last but not least, it’s also about the community. So right now it’s a bit…
let’s say focused on me, people reach out to me, have some questions, do I know certain people, service providers, and then I bring people together. I want to do that more because I think it fits with the mission to facilitate the circular transformation. I’m not sure about the right structure, so if anyone listening right now has some ideas, please reach out. But yeah, it’s about bringing people together, spreading the word. Let’s see.
where we would be in six years from now.
Celinne de Paula: I’m looking forward to it. My last question to you, kind of like linking to what you just said, which is actually a question. Do you have anything to say to the people that are listening and have been listening to Circularity.fm?
Patrick Hypscher: ⁓ Yeah, I think two aspects. First one is ⁓ send me, send us feedback. So podcast is a rather traditional, somehow linear format. ⁓ We are broadcasting and of course we get from time to time feedback. It’s super valuable to get feedback inspired, a new series, inspired changes, improvements. ⁓
Also, if you just like something, ⁓ just share it with us because this is for you more or less and we are happy to improve it. the last one is ⁓ thanks for listening.
Celinne de Paula: Thank you very much, Patrick. Thank you for being on your show.
Patrick Hypscher: ⁓ Thanks Celinne for this idea and this great interview.
Celinne de Paula: We hope you enjoy today’s episode. Just picking up on what Patrick said, we would love to get your feedback. It always makes us very happy to hear from you. And I do have a special request. If you like the show, please don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite platform. We are on YouTube, on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify. And also please follow us on LinkedIn. We do share a lot of interesting things there as well as the events that are happening in this circular economy.
And please don’t forget, the most abundant renewable resource is your imagination.
Patrick Hypscher: My name is Patrick Hypscher and this is Circularity.fm, the podcast about understanding, building and managing circular business models.