Ocean plastics are a danger to the environment and humans. Cleaning it up and avoiding it from happening is a business opportunity, though.
In this episode, Ellen Martin, Chief Impact Officer at Circulate Capital, presents how the circular startups in their portfolio tackle the plastics crisis while running profitable businesses. With venture capital investments in Asia and Latin America, Ellen highlights commonalities and differences of markets in these continents. She illustrates the dependency of circular business models on local circumstances.
This episode is part of VC for Circularity – the Venture Capital Perspective on Circular Economy Startups.
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Video Impression
People
Ellen Martin, Chief Impact Officer at Circulate Capital
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellenmartinsf/
Patrick Hypscher, Circular Business Strategist, PaaS Expert
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hypscher/
Chapters
00:00 Intro
01:23 Getting to Know Ellen Martin
02:56 Start with corporate investors
05:34 The investment focus on plastic circularity
07:56 Assessment of Circular and Social Impact as part of the Due Diligence
13:37 Integrating circular impact and commercial success
18:21 Balancing local feedstock supply and international scale
19:54 Reasons for starting in Asia
23:29 The relevance of vertically integrated models
24:44 The challenges of technology transfer to emerging markets
26:09 Scaling potential of different business models
29:00 Having an impact and building a business simultaneously
29:39 Undervalued companies, the role of regulation and local for local ecosystems
About
Circulate Capital is a leading circular economy investment management firm in high-growth markets.
Circulate Capital partners with global brands and institutional investors to invest into solutions that catalyze systems change across the globe. The financing transforms circular plastic supply chains at scale, delivering competitive financial returns and positive impact.
Further Links
https://www.circulatecapital.com/
Portfolio companies:
https://www.tridi-oasis.com/
https://www.lucro.in/
https://www.preventedoceanplastic.com/
https://www.earthodic.com/
Transcript
Intro
[00:00:00] Ellen Martin: If you’re solving a real waste problem and turning that into a revenue opportunity, you’re not just doing impact, you’re building a business.
And if you know your impact model, be clear about how scale will make it even stronger.
My name is Patrick Hypscher and this is Circularity fm, the podcast about understanding, building and managing circular business models.
[00:00:40] Patrick Hypscher: Welcome to VC for circularity, the venture capital perspective on circular economy startups. In the last episode, Maya Hassa shared how the Circular Innovation Fund brings startups and corporates together, and what she thinks about circular business models in Europe and North America. Today we will turn on the plastics challenge with a focus on Asia and Latin America.
But before we start, I have an offer for you. If you want to get the actionable one pager about this conversation, sign up for the Circularity fm Newsletter. You can find it at www circularity.fm.
Ellen Martin
[00:01:23] Patrick Hypscher: She holds a bachelor’s degree from Yale University and an MBA from Berkeley. Growing up in a family of entrepreneurs, she was exposed to entrepreneurs spirit. Early on. Her career path was driven by the desire for positive impact. She was vice president of Closed Loop Partners and has been the chief impact officer of Circulate capital for more than four years.
Welcome, Ellen.
[00:01:47] Ellen Martin: Great. Wonderful to be here, Patrick. Thanks so much.
[00:01:51] Patrick Hypscher: What’s your favorite plastic substitute?
[00:01:56] Ellen Martin: Ooh, what’s my favorite plastic substitute? I have to say I have I hold a special place in my heart for glass. It’s one of the first materials and waste streams that I got to know when I started in my work in the circular economy.
And it’s a pretty incredible material. If you can solve the problem of recycling glass it’s quite, it’s quite useful. And it’s great for reuse as well.
[00:02:20] Patrick Hypscher: Jumping already ahead. I know that Circulate capital has a plastics focus. Do you also happen to cover glass from time to time or, I.
[00:02:29] Ellen Martin: We so it’s interesting you ask. There are companies we’ve looked at that are more on the, say, collections and aggregation side of the supply chain. And they handle many material types, recyclables, including glass. But typically in the markets we invest in, they would be glass for reuse. So in places like Thailand you have a pretty robust reuse and refill program for, let’s say beer bottles and that sort of thing.
Start with corporate investors
[00:02:56] Patrick Hypscher: Let’s do one step back. So Circulate Capital is one of the, the first and pretty prominent , venture capital fund. And what is special is your corporation with corporate investors from from the early days. Why did you start, cooperating with, corporate investors only.
[00:03:17] Ellen Martin: So circulate Capital actually was born from a recognition that was shared by many of these corporates around the issue of ocean plastics. And really that the crisis of the materials that we are found being found in the ocean could not be solved by any one company alone.
So our very first investors in 2018 came together including Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Dow, Danone, P&G, Unilever, CP Chem, and Mondelez to really invest in us to invest in c scalable circular solutions to tackle the issue. That’s how we got started. And investing in those solutions and scaling them to generate more circular solutions for packaging was really an answer, an industry-wide effort. That’s the collaboration that’s been the foundation from our very first beginnings.
And we weren’t just investing in recycling. So we also really demonstrated in our theory of change and investment strategy that we’re building a blueprint for how these large corporations can align their supply chain needs, but also climate priorities with scalable private sector solutions.
As we like to say, we invest for circularity plus value plus impact.
[00:04:35] Patrick Hypscher: Okay, wonderful. And, and why did it change over time so that not only the corporates invested in your fund?
[00:04:44] Ellen Martin: Yeah, well, as momentum grew I think we also saw an appetite for broader participation.
So pretty early on we knew this focus on emerging markets would also be attractive to development finances institutions and multilateral banks. So they joined our second fund including EIB, IFC, Proparco, and BII.
And then also our innovation strategy designed for more disruptive technologies and early stage models and solutions really were very attracted to other prime investors with more of a VC style approach to impact.
[00:05:21] Patrick Hypscher: Okay. Nice. I guess that gives you also let’s say more possibilities to reach the impact, add value with more supporters and limited partners. Yeah,
[00:05:32] Ellen Martin: absolutely. Yes.
The investment focus on plastic circularity
[00:05:34] Patrick Hypscher: Yeah. What is your investment focus?
[00:05:38] Ellen Martin: So circular economy is very broad, right? But our focus to date has really been primarily on plastic circularity, prioritizing circular solutions to address single use plastic packaging because of the tremendous environmental impact when this material is not managed, as we discussed at the beginning around ocean plastics in particular.
But the thing about plastics is that it’s also found in other waste streams. So that could be textiles, automotives, electronics and you know, then we also have to think about other packaging types too, because single use waste shows up in the waste stream not neatly segregated between plastics or glass or a metal, et cetera, but also all combined.
Within the focus on plastic, though, we do invest across entire value chain. So everything from collections and aggregation as I mentioned before, to processing material. And that could be all the way to food grade or blended pellets that are used in remanufacturing. We also can invest in remanufacturing into end products and digitization solutions as well, which are key.
On the innovation side, we’ve made investments into advanced or chemical recycling as well as alternative materials.
So that gives us a sort of ways to touch the whole system and hopefully have that systemic impact we’re looking for. Our role is as a private equity investors. So from a, a commercial standpoint, we’re focusing more on commercial stage companies that are already generating revenue and are ready to scale.
[00:07:09] Patrick Hypscher: Do you translate that in any metric? So some funds have a carbon emission target , do you have something similar?
[00:07:17] Ellen Martin: Absolutely. So I guess to start, I. The key metrics for us really follow what you might think of as the material flow in the circular economy model. So we want to know what waste is being managed also what gets circulated and processed. What’s sold into new end markets. So that flow is critical for us to understand impact both before we invest that sort of current state as well as what’s possible with our investment and what we ultimately achieve as a result of the investment.
And hopefully the companies are increasingly diverting more and more material into circular supply chain over time.
Assessment of Circular and Social Impact as part of the Due Diligence
[00:07:56] Patrick Hypscher: Okay, so, so, and then you analyze the status quo and you benchmark the solution of the company with the traditional market solution and see the try to grasp the, the rate of improvement or the potential, or how.
How do you put it in context?
[00:08:15] Ellen Martin: So in context. So it’s really integrated into our due diligence process. So if you think about it alongside of, you know, a commercial or financial legal due diligence we screen alignment with our theory of change right from the beginning. So in that first stage, we’re excluding deals that really doesn’t align with that theory of change of potential for reaching sort of global scale in alignment with bigger circular supply chains.
And then in the due diligence process we’re assessing the current flow both for the individual company as well as in the market that we might be investing in. And then also looking then at sort of what you might call an impact pro forma or projections with investment. Totally aligned and integrated with the growth plan and financial model to say, okay if this proceeds the way we think it will then the potential impact in the future looks like X year over year.
And then we further test that hypothesis, the assumptions through whatever the latest research is, but also through conducting interviews with experts and our stakeholders and the stakeholders of the company as well.
So, you know, ultimately we’re looking to protect our impact outcomes and do that through then terms and conditions within our investment agreements with portfolio management and seeing that through in many different ways in how we support and manage our business relationship over time and even extends post exit so that we can ensure that there’s a sustained impact.
[00:09:52] Patrick Hypscher: How do you do that? How, how can you reliably ensure that,
[00:09:58] Ellen Martin: Which part.
[00:09:59] Patrick Hypscher: The post exit part,
[00:10:00] Ellen Martin: The post exit part, right. So we have a responsible exit policy actually. And in with the impact lens, I think we’re looking at a few things.
So we would be looking at you know, who the end investor is the, the parties that we’re exiting to.
I think in most cases, our business models are so where the impact and business are so integrated that it’s hard to imagine that a buyer at the end of the day would if they fundamentally change the model, they’ve broken the business, not just the impact.
We also then keep in touch with our. Investments post impact post exit, where we do annual reporting. And they commit to that and then also are in touch with them to offer further support and engagement over time.
[00:10:48] Patrick Hypscher: I wanna come back to the material flow. Yeah. And the, the question about North Star.
So you said initially the focus is on plastics. So you then really technically assess the number of plastics this specific business avoids or keeps in the loop
[00:11:08] Ellen Martin: yeah. So first and foremost, of course is the environmental benefit, and we think of that in terms of plastic circulated or avoided.
So that’s basically the, the volume of plastic waste that, you know, recycling investment, for example the volume of plastic waste that would come into the system and be processed by the company basically diverted essentially from the environment or from current unmanaged or mismanaged end cases. So in many of the markets we invest in, that means diverting it from landfill or open burning or incineration.
So plastics is at the core of that, but then the solutions have to have climate benefit as well. We have developed a model called PLACES Calculator, made it available online through our missional aligned nonprofit partner, the Circulate Initiative, which uses existing research to indicate what the climate benefit the GHG emissions benefit is of recycling that material as opposed to current end of life state in that country.
Then environmental is the first part of it. And I would say that key to, to a circular economy and demonstrating that is not just what gets recovered, but actually what gets sold into new end markets. Mm-hmm. So that’s an important metric for us and also the capacity that’s been built because ultimately that’s the sustained impact that we will see once that capacity comes online and is exists and persists.
Then even if we exit the deal, we know that that continues beyond our, our investment time horizon.
We’re also demonstrating the viability of the sector, right? So one of the things we pay attention to is that capacity, but also where other investors are coming in to help additionally scale.
And , one of our first investments in Indonesia was a company called Tridi Oasis. A recycler, founded by two women and our exit came there when a strategic partner acquired the company and is now scaling that company four x what we were able to get them to.
The other aspect that I would just highlight in terms of our North Stars is really around social impact as well. We intend to improve the livelihoods of the workers across the supply chains. Through our investments and partnerships. And so that is also something that we look at, not just in terms of new jobs created, but actually the workers who have benefited from improved traceability, improved policies. We have a specific focus on women as well.
Integrating circular impact and commercial success
[00:13:37] Patrick Hypscher: Okay. So, and now if we take this environmental perspective, the social perspective, there’s obviously also the commercial perspective. And you mentioned you look for integrated business models where this goes hand in hand. Can you give an example how this looks like?
[00:13:55] Ellen Martin: For sure. in terms of examples, I think every company we’ve invested in could be an example.
We just don’t believe in the trade off between the business and commercial.
So for example, the, the company I mentioned before, Lucro, their business has always been about manufacturing and recycling flexible films. So from the beginning, their profitability, their cost effectiveness is all about the quality and volume of their feedstock. Over time they’ve actually vertically integrated all the way to aggregation and collection centers, they now have more than a dozen across the country. And then going from that to the processing part of it, washing and flaking and densifying that material, and then producing, as I said before or in, in some cases as well, they’re producing the actual films and shrink wrap.
So from beginning start to finish, they’re kind of optimizing the, and integrating where the business has improved their efficiency and profitability, but also scaled tremendously in terms of taking a pretty hard to recycle material and making sure that it we increase the amount of recycled content that can be used in any of those applications.
[00:15:18] Patrick Hypscher: Okay. So that basically means every, every Euro in terms of turnover also drives positive impact of the company.
[00:15:27] Ellen Martin: Absolutely.
[00:15:29] Patrick Hypscher: You said you don’t believe in the trade-off. So have you seen companies where, see, this is actually pretty interesting what they’re doing, but by design, there’s a trade off as part of that company.
[00:15:42] Ellen Martin: So I think that one of the common challenges there in terms of trade-offs is it’s easier to recycle post-industrial material ’cause it’s clean and you know, and, and that I think is an issue where it could be interesting but what we would try to do in the course of analyzing a potential investment is look at what’s the potential to increase the amount of post-consumer material or material that previously wasn’t getting recycled to be used as feedstock.
And what happens there in many of the markets is if you’re even planning to scale, this company cannot scale by relying on post-industrial material alone. They have to go out and seek post-consumer material.
So then the process becomes. Okay. How do we work with them on a sourcing strategy to do this in an inclusive way to incentivize collection and recovery and to get ultimately a feedstock that yield adjusted price is competitive in the marketplace.
So these are the kinds of analytical lenses that we put on our work to make sure that we can increase the impact through our investment and turn a deal that may have had a trade off into something that is actually a fully integrated model in which they make money because they’re having impact.
[00:17:00] Patrick Hypscher: And just to make sure I understand it correctly, so the trade off here was that your assessment was that the amount of post-industrial waste is limited and therefore the scalability of the business model is limited.
[00:17:15] Ellen Martin: Absolutely.
[00:17:17] Patrick Hypscher: And if it wasn’t limited, the post-industrial waste, would there be a trade off between impact and commercial ambition?
[00:17:27] Ellen Martin: I think it wouldn’t be something that we would be as interested in. That’s not really, you know, what we’re looking to do. And recognizing that in the markets we’re investing in the amount of post-consumer material that’s out there and not getting managed, let alone recycled far exceeds, right?
And so another example, you know, would be moving from imported material to domestic material. So there might be a company that’s importing material from, let’s say more developed countries where you can get a clean bale of of material pretty, pretty easily.
Until tariffs and other challenges come into play and , just for example and, and might create some barriers to accessing that feedstock and developing the domestic the domestic supply is really critically important, and that has an impact opportunity as well.
Balancing local feedstock supply and international scale
[00:18:21] Patrick Hypscher: Okay. If we take that further. And you then also have the lens of scalability. So if a certain company relies on domestic supply, I can imagine that this also includes some limitations to scale because different countries have different setups, different starting conditions. Have you experienced that?
[00:18:43] Ellen Martin: Yes. I think that, that, that’s a really fair point. And one of the things that I think we think about a lot is what’s the balance and roadmap to increasingly create local I circular supply chains. Mm-hmm.
And so, for example, we invested in a company in Indonesia called POP SEA. It’s a collection center network that intentionally is trying to create hub and spoke models in to address the lack of collection in more remote areas of Indonesia. So rather than solely focused in the most highest populated areas, which in Indonesia is typically like Jakarta and Suraya have very good recovery, but places outside of those two metropolitan areas don’t have, as much material recovered, even though there’s plenty of material out there.
And so their model is really about increasing the access to recycling in a lot of these more remote areas. And that has a benefit of, you know driving scale of future feedstock for the domestic market. But then they can also become opportunities to, to export as well.
Reasons for starting in Asia
[00:19:54] Patrick Hypscher: We are already talking about the regional differences.
And I learned that you started in Southeast Asia. Why was that?
[00:20:02] Ellen Martin: Yeah. Much of the research that was coming out in say 2015 to 2018 indicated that the epicenter of the ocean plastics issue was really coming from Asia.
Mm-hmm. But so that’s why we initially started there and also saw that the ecosystem for investment was, I.
Was a good one for us. But Latin America also was shown to be a major contributor and each region, I, I would say has been and continues to be estimated to be contributing millions of tons of plastic waste.
So both regions are exciting from an impact perspective. Also from an investment perspective. We couldn’t do everything all at once. So I think we started in south and southeast Asia. And then within four years time we’ve now since expanded with a, a fund focused on Latin America and the Caribbean.
[00:20:53] Patrick Hypscher: What are similarities you see between these regions?
[00:20:57] Ellen Martin: It’s been fascinating for me personally to see the patterns emerge in unexpected ways.
So where India and Brazil, for example, I would say are much more similar markets than maybe Brazil and Uruguay. They both have incredible scale within the country, which creates kind of unified, regulatory environments as well, and some very interesting overlaps and similarities there.
Likewise, island nations. So in Asia we have Indonesia and the Philippines. But they share similarities with the Caribbean, where the challenges of that, the geographic specificities really come into play.
Another similarity. I think many of the companies that we engage, in both markets, I would say are in many cases we’re the first. We’re the first outside investor that they’re talking to. So building trust is crucial as a first step to any investment relationship. And culturally, each country, even in each region are pretty different.
So I think that’s one of the things that. It’s been a learning for me personally, I’m really grateful for our amazing team. We have about 40 people. We live in 13 or 14 different countries around the world, so we’re very rooted on ground and our diversity is really our strength when it comes to investing across multiple regions and countries.
[00:22:23] Patrick Hypscher: Can you elaborate more on the geographic specificities? So for example, when you said Indonesia and the Caribbean, so, so what, what, what is similar between these two?
[00:22:33] Ellen Martin: So when you have populations on remote islands, the cost of logistics become very, very expensive. So, for example, even to transport material that might have, have pretty good value, like rPET it becomes almost prohibitively expensive. And this also is influenced by what we’ve seen more recently in terms of volatility of international trade and shipping routes where a ton of rPET might be, let’s say, just off the top of my head, 900, a thousand dollars a ton, but the cost of shipping that ton suddenly looks like another 400, $500. And so that really breaks the system, if you will. And so we need to find better solutions that work locally or regionally to address some of those challenges.
The relevance of vertically integrated models
[00:23:29] Patrick Hypscher: It feels like one of the major differences between Latin America and Asia compared to North America and and Europe is the maturity of collection systems. Is that right? Or what else is different?
[00:23:45] Ellen Martin: So I think, one of the interesting topics to discuss is really what we see in the investment landscape, what is scalable versus what’s more limited maybe indifference between developed markets versus emerging markets or high growth markets as we call them.
What’s certainly scalable, is something that we refer to as like the vertically integrated model. So like the example I gave with Lucro earlier.
In places where wide scale municipal collection and aggregation does not happen in a way that’s paid for by, let’s say, the municipality of the government, right? The public sector. Then the vertically integrated business model becomes crucially important to access feedstock, domestically.
Mm-hmm. So that’s certainly a, an aspect of what’s different that I think is takeaway that we have come to understand in south and Southeast Asia and apply in Latin America as well.
The challenges of technology transfer to emerging markets
[00:24:44] Ellen Martin: On the flip side, I would say that there are also opportunities that are maybe more limited. Although we have invested, for example, in advanced recycling and chemical recycling we have a, a great portfolio company called Circ that’s based in the US that we invested in because we, I think there’s a great opportunity for technology transfer and application in Asia where so much textile manufacturing occurs. But when you think about, and I spent a lot of time , researching technologies, advanced recycling technologies, most of them coming out of North America and Europe. When prior to circulate capital.
The need for commercially viable solutions that can address the feedstock challenge locally just becomes really difficult in an emerging market where, as you pointed out, collections and aggregation is maybe a little less developed. So the challenge there and the issues of contamination and the realities on the ground just make that those opportunities perhaps more limited.
We’re always looking for them. And I think in the long term, the time will come for these technologies to have a role to play. But in the near term, there’s certainly a challenge with being able to comfortably say that there are many opportunities out there for advanced recycling technologies in the markets we’re looking at today.
Scaling potential of different business models
[00:26:09] Patrick Hypscher: And let’s stick to that topic of different types of business models. So you mentioned recycling, advanced materials, vertically integrated collection systems for example. What are the business models that have the highest potential for scaling?
[00:26:25] Ellen Martin: Yeah. So the business model question is a really interesting one.
In the recycling infrastructure side of things. I would say that one of the things we’re looking for typically is scale through replication in some ways.
In recycling in our markets is never gonna look like a 500,000 ton a year plant that’s centrally located and all the material sort of neatly shows up at the door. And you know, it’s a continuous process. It’s just not how these systems work. So it is very much a distributive model.
Vertical integration, as I mentioned before, is also probably another key aspect of it. So when we’re looking at a recycling company, for example, you either have one that’s vertically integrated or you have one with a really strong supplier network. Then we’re also trying to build relationships in both cases with, of course, the end customers through our relationships with the corporate LPs.
The other aspect towards scalability then is you know, solutions like licensing technologies or, you know, smaller scale facilities that are replicated through hub and spoke models. Something that we talked about earlier with the POP SEA example.
So I think these are some of the ways in which we see scale happening rather than, again, like what maybe petrochemical industry to use an analogy would be called like a global scale operation. It’s just kind of not how we’re, we’re seeing the, the landscape.
Similarly on the maybe alternative material side, I’ll speak to that for just a second. I think the business models there are more nascent. And we’re focused on solutions that can be more drop-in solutions and contributing materials in the overall packaging solution set.
So, for example, we’ve invested in a company called Earthodic that is a bio-based coating that can be used let’s say on cardboard and paper and offers an alternative to a multi-layer plastic packaging where you would previously have aluminum and plastic and maybe even paper too and that is not recyclable versus something with paper, with this Earthodic coating on it, which can be recycled through existing paper recycling infrastructure.
[00:28:51] Patrick Hypscher: Exciting. I feel like we, we could talk for another hour and you still will find new examples.
[00:28:58] Ellen Martin: Yes. Always.
Having an impact and building a business simultaneously
[00:29:00] Patrick Hypscher: That’s amazing. But yeah, let’s wrap it up.
I have three questions. And I’m curious to get your answers. First one is from a founder’s perspective.
So what’s your tip two circular founders applying for funding these days?
[00:29:14] Ellen Martin: If you’re solving a real waste problem and turning that into a revenue opportunity, you’re not just doing impact, you’re building a business.
And if you know your impact model, be clear about how scale will make it even stronger. So again, like believing and seeing the interrelationship between business success and impact are the key.
Undervalued companies, the role of regulation and local for local ecosystems
[00:29:39] Patrick Hypscher: Right. The next question is about the future. So what kind of trends do you see in circular businesses in the next three years?
[00:29:47] Ellen Martin: So I think the first thing that I would say is I think there are many undervalued companies out there, and if you’re willing to find them and have a team on ground and then develop those companies you’ll reap the benefits. I think that’s what we’ve really invested in, in terms of our investment approach and with our portfolio now in South Southeast Asia and in Latin America.
Second thing I would say is I think policy is going to continue to be a big driver. I don’t know what will happen with the Global Plastics Treaty if any of your listeners follow that, but even if it turns out to be less ambitious or game changing than we hoped three years ago when the whole process started, I. I think there are still countries all over the world where policies are being developed and it will have a tremendous impact. We know that policy can create investment opportunities ’cause we’ve seen it in the markets. We’ve invested in some of them. And if the policy is done well, it can be really exciting.
The third is, I, I guess I would say we could also see a push for more local, for local or maybe regional circularity. With everything that’s been going on, as we’ve talked about before, this really means that local supply will be even more attractive than it was before in order to meet local demand, and I think in many countries, EU, Brazil, there are already restrictions on importing recycled plastics that will further incentivize local supply.
[00:31:12] Patrick Hypscher: Exciting times. My last question is about the listeners. So, who are you looking forward to get in contact with?
[00:31:19] Ellen Martin: I am always looking for entrepreneurs, investors, NGOs, policy makers, anyone who wants to talk to me about the economics of circularity, I think it’s completely fascinating and love to dig into business models and really understand how the impact and economics connect.
[00:31:37] Patrick Hypscher: Wonderful. Ellen, thanks a lot for sharing your experience.
[00:31:41] Ellen Martin: Thanks so much, Patrick.
[00:31:45] Patrick Hypscher: This was Ellen Martin, chief Impact Officer of Circulate Capital in our series VC for Circularity. If you want to get the actionable one pager about this conversation, sign up for the Circularity FM newsletter. You can find it at www.Circularity. Fm. Let’s drive a profitable circular economy. And please don’t forget, the most abundant renewable resource is your imagination.
My name is Patrick Hypscher and this is Circularity fm, the podcast about understanding, building and managing circular business models.